20 January, 2008...4:45 pm
TAC/Rome rumors
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Since some were speculating concerning the TAC/Rome talks, here is what I have heard (and let me underline, this is only gossip that comes to me third hand!):
- Something will be published by the end of February along the lines of the Personal Apostolic Administration of Saint John Mary Vianney. The inside gossip is that an Apostolic Administrator is Rome’s favored model.
That being said, I still think there are other issues to be discussed before a model is considered: Orders, liturgy, marriage discipline for clergy and laity, etc. The rumors I have heard have only come from the TAC side and those who are in the know are telling me that the above is the most likely outcome of the discussions.
31 Comments
21 January, 2008 at 6:20 am
Just a thought… if a Personal Apostolic Administration is established for the TAC - will after this generation of married priest- celibacy be mandatory? How will TAC parishes and members react and/or will a dispensation from celibacy be allowed for such a Personal Apostolic Administration? If not, I could easily see most parishes without priests within fifity years and then the administration being absorbed by the local Latin diocese.
21 January, 2008 at 8:45 am
Good point, Clint. The same issue has been raised in relation to the Anglican Use - what will happen after the current generation of clergy retire? A long term solution requires seminaries or some way of ensuring a supply of future clergy.
21 January, 2008 at 10:18 am
Me likey gossip, sometimes.
Extra prayers for the effort this evening!
(I have a radical suggestion no one will listen to… I need to think about it more though.)
21 January, 2008 at 10:42 am
I can’t imagine a married priesthood being a major problem — married episcopate, yes — I’m doubtful this will happen, it just goes too much against the grain of both the West and the East. These, however, are just my thoughts.
I would really love to see this work out. Anything to get me away from those awful, contemporary, Responsorial Psalms from the Psalms for Awful Listening Revised Version sung by a middle-aged lady with outstretched “Holy Spirit” arms.
21 January, 2008 at 11:24 am
Along with the Apostolic Administration, or whatever model is used, there needs to be a model for education future clergy. Perhaps a Roman Catholic institution would create an Anglican use programme. But an actual seminary community is needed… this is something the TAC needs in any case, with or without full communion with Rome in the near future. We have a variety of good options for seminarians, but we need a major seminary (not major as in large, but as in our preferred option for postulants), one that would assist both in the formation of single priests, but also provide support to married candidates. This has become such an important part of the Anglican charism, that to change it suddenly, even over multiple generations, would do tremendous damage to the church (just as quickly changing to allow married Latin rite clergy would do tremendous damage).
21 January, 2008 at 6:25 pm
If I may, my understanding is that Saint Charles Borromeo Seminary in Pennsylvania has a somewhat informal agreement to allow TAC seminarians to be educated there. Is an independent seminary necessary initially, or would a recognized program at an existing seminary be sufficient?
Rob, I feel your pain. The worst was at a parish in Roanoke, where the cantrix (I guess that’s the word) would assume poses reminiscent of Saturday Night Fever when the congregation was to respond. What’s wrong with the good old Anglican model of the priest reading a line, the congregation replying with the next one, and so on? I mean, I know it costs a tad more to print up programs each week with the psalm, readings, etc. each week, but I can’t imagine that it would be a dealbreaker or something forbidden by the Roman Rite.
22 January, 2008 at 3:29 am
I still see it as unlikely given the relatively small numbers in TAC (but that didn’t stop the St John Vianney group in Brazil), the leftover 1970s-1980s RC establishment favouring mainstream Anglican liberals over conservative Anglo-Catholics (because they’re so, ew, Catholic - apparently Pope Benedict doesn’t share that bad feeling) and Irish RC resentment of the English but not impossible except the spanner in the works that John Hepworth is a married former RC priest. If he retired and agreed to live as a layman I could see the union going through… in theory. They’d use the Book of Divine Worship, the approved, spiked-up Novus Ordo/1979 US BCP hybrid.
22 January, 2008 at 10:39 am
Most people in the Continuing Church do not use anything like the Novus Ordo, or the 1979 “BCP”. Fortunately, I don’t think that the BDW is quite so bad as that. But it needs work.
23 January, 2008 at 1:13 am
I’ve seen Archbishop Hepworth consecrate two bishops and celebrate Mass using the US 1979 BCP for both. He’s liturgically modern much like the English Anglo-Papalist mould (they’re Novus Ordo - strange to an American Anglo-Catholic to see that held up as a badge of orthodoxy).
I like what I understand much of the American Continuum’s liturgics are - classic biretta belt (upper Mid-West like Chicago and Milwaukee, in the 1950s), Tridentine ceremonial and Prayer Book English.
23 January, 2008 at 7:33 am
Are you referring to the consecration of bishops David Moyer and David Chislett?
Since this was a joint act between the TAC and Forward in Faith, it may not be indicative of the TAC’s (or even Archbishop Hepworth’s) normal practice. I saw the Primate consecrate two bishops in Canada, and that service used the Canadian 1962 BCP and the Missal. (And of course, the vestments worn were anything but “liturgically modern”!)
That said, I think that the TAC does have quite a bit of liturgical variation. The important thing is its preservation of the historic Episcopate and Holy Orders, while being free to dialogue and work with other Anglicans, as well as Catholics.
23 January, 2008 at 7:36 am
Yes.
I know there’s variation in TAC.
23 January, 2008 at 5:57 pm
“If I may, my understanding is that Saint Charles Borromeo Seminary in Pennsylvania has a somewhat informal agreement to allow TAC seminarians to be educated there. Is an independent seminary necessary initially, or would a recognized program at an existing seminary be sufficient?”
Agree or disagree, for good or ill, the Latins probably will not be terribly enthused with their celibate candidates in the same formation as the married men…
I know it happens somewhat already…
24 January, 2008 at 11:47 am
Church of the Good Shepherd, Bp. Moyer’s parish, uses a specially-commissioned version of the 1928 BCP with antiquated language. I’ve attended both High and Low Mass there before; it’s certainly a traditional style of Mass, using hymnals, bells and smells, and a variety of assistants at the altar. Communion by intinction isn’t an option, either: either you eat from the wafer and drink from the cup or the priest dips it and puts it on your tongue. And, arguably most importantly…no passing of the peace! (As their sign at the doorway says, “Please talk to God before the service and your neighbor afterwards.”)
24 January, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Good Shepherd (and Bishop Moyer) are one of a kind, that’s for sure!!! I had a lengthy chat with Bishop Moyer when he led the Retreat for the Diocese of The Murray some years ago. I also MCed for him while he was there. He said that their own Prayer Book (ie a Missal and Breviary) has been used there for some years. BUT it is used, to my knowledge, no where else. (Please correct me if I am wrong!)
Also Good Shepherd does not embody TAC worship. In fact the Primate is promoting a TAC Rite of Mass that has been used for all consecration and TAC function since his enthronement. It is a mix of the Modern Rite with some Prayer Book elements. Another bishop, I know, uses the 1970 Norvus Ordo Mass in Cranmerian English. Another uses it in the official Roman translation.
A major issue for the TAC is a standard rite of Mass that is used throughout the TAC.
25 January, 2008 at 6:14 am
Why is this a major issue? I don’t see the reason, somehow.
25 January, 2008 at 7:01 am
(I assume you are speaking to me! :D )
One of the arguments (me thinks) for the TAC being their own Apostolic Administrator is that there is a distinctive heritage that needs to be preserve. Well, how is a heritage distinctive within a multitude of liturgical rites?
Also, when Rome sends out its spies to look at the average TAC parish (which they have said they will do), they may visit six parishes and get eight liturgical rites. What does that say about the TAC??
(I’ll admit that my experience is limited to Australia. But here I have yet to come to two parishes that use the same rite for anything!)
25 January, 2008 at 11:39 am
Of course, going to multiple Roman Catholic parishes in the United States could yield you a typical N.O. Mass, a Traditional Latin Mass, a N.O. in Latin, a Sung High Mass in Latin, a folk Mass, whatever the teenager thing is called (LifeTeen?), and innumerable Spanish, Korean, Vietnamese, etc. versions as well. I’m not sure this is as big of an issue as it seems.
One question: to what extent is the Kyrie-Gloria-Credo-Sanctus-Agnus Dei order mandatory? The Great Litany seems to be done at the very beginning (right after the initial Glory Be?) at the Roman Catholic parish I attend, but I’m certain that every Anglican service I’ve attended has had it right before Communion.
25 January, 2008 at 11:53 am
Of course, Tribal. There are individual interpretations, or cultural interpretations, of the rite. Some of these may be a blatant departure from the norm. But one can point to a Roman Rite (either Ordinary or Extraordinary)! Can one point to a TAC Rite?
Re:Gloria. It all depends on whether one is an Anglican Catholic or a Catholic Anglican, doesn’t it?!?! Bess makes that point in the Introduction to Divided We Stand. The question can be distilled to what is liturgically normative: the Prayer Book or the Catholic tradition?
25 January, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Isn’t the TAC Rite simply that of the BCP? Every Anglo-Catholic (and even Broad Church) service I’ve ever attended has been easily recognizable. The Evangelical ones tend to stray a bit, but all the rest look like Rite I or Rite II (which aren’t even all that different from each other), with the Kyrie-etc. pattern above. Maybe I just don’t get out much, but I’ve seen a lot more variation in Roman Catholic interpretation of a lot of things than in Anglican services. While the type of service I’m most familiar with is Broad Church, even the Sung High Mass at Church of the Good Shepherd wasn’t foreign at all. The TAC parishes down in Australia can’t possibly be following the Evangelical model of hardly any liturgy, can they?
25 January, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Okay these are the TAC services I have been to or know have been authorized for use within the ACCA:
English Missal (BCP) ie Gloria at end
English Missal (BCP) with Roman Canon
English Missal (Western Rite) ie Gloria at beginning
English Missal (Western Rite) with BCP Canon
English Missal (Western Rite) with Roman Canon
English Missal (with HC 1548)
English Missal (Interim Rite)
BCP 1549
BCP 1662
BCP 1662 with Gloria at beginning
BCP 1662 with some minor propers
BCP 1928
BCP 1928 with Prayer at the Foot of the Altar
BCP 1928 with Roman Canon
TAC Diocesan Rite (The Hepworth Rite) using Three Year Lectionary
TAC Diocesan Rite (The Hepworth Rite) using One Year Lectionary
Camerian English Norvus Ordo
Straight Norvus Ordo
An Australian Prayer Book (using Norvus Ordo propers)
That does not include the mix and match rites and peculiar rites of individual parishes and priests. And I will not even mention the individual Calendars (eg the Primate celebrates Christ the King at the end of the year while most continue celebrating it on the last Sunday in October).
25 January, 2008 at 3:27 pm
Marco,
You are well aware from two phone calls from me, as well as from other sources, that the TAC will not join in these discussions, because we have given a commitment to the Holy See to refrain from media comments until the Holy See decides otherwise. Some blogs, with whom I have had the same conversation, in order that our silence might not be misconstrued, have discouraged threads such as this simply because we cannot and will not respond, even though the discussion will be rather misconceived without our input. You, on the other hand, are initiating threads such as this. You have newly recognised the authority of the Apostolic See, as obviously although in a different form, have we. Might I ask for a silence that matches ours, until we can join together in public conversation? Or at least a note that you are aware from the Statement approved by the Holy See that we are not talking about these matter publically until the Holy See responds?
I have urged the TAC to spend its talking time in prayer instead, taking the model of the disciples waiting with Our Lady before Pentecost. I have been greatly warmed by this initial act of obedience on the part of my fellow bishops.
The official list of liturgies approved by the College of Bishops under the process of the Concordat, with their approved options within approved rites, it is readily available from my office on request. Equally obviously, the question of liturgy is in the end a matter between the Holy See and the TAC, in which the authority of the Holy See is recognised by the TAC bishops, as is the previous generosity of the Holy See in making liturgical provision for Anglicans coming into communion it. My statements about that matter are on the public record.
+JH
25 January, 2008 at 4:34 pm
Whoa.
Never let it be said that the Traditional Anglican Communion has gotten left behind in this age of technology!
29 January, 2008 at 11:21 am
Been a Catholic in the Latin Rite, welcome home. I understand that the liturgy very reverent in the TAC. I’m hoping to attend a service to share communion.
29 January, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Quote: They’d use the Book of Divine Worship, the approved, spiked-up Novus Ordo/1979 US BCP hybrid.
My God! Let us pray not.
The ASB (Good Shepherd’s book) or the 1928, but please not the Book of Divine Worship. While maintaining the essentials of the Anglican beauty in Daily Office, the substitution of Novus ordo for the Eucharistic language is so… so… what’s the word?
30 January, 2008 at 2:32 am
Bishop Fick, sometimes its not always on “our terms”.
I am a proud Greek Catholic. As I travel often for work (and run the risk of transfer to nowheresville) I run the frequent risk of being without the DLoSJC… As a Catholic, I am always grateful and at peace for what I can get where I can get it.
Extra prayers for the TAC today.
And Bp Fick, if and when you swim the Tiber, let us know at Per Christum, we are always looking for fellow convert/revert contributors to add to the roster!
11 February, 2008 at 12:07 am
Dear Simple,
Thanks, as always, for invitation for the aquatic exercise…
Anyhow, a meaningful critique of the BDW is much too lengthy to post here and I would merely be repeating what many others have said elsewhere. Just 2 quick observations. First, the BDW simply does not reflect the best liturgical offerings of either tradition and while it perhaps seems incomprehensible, mystifying, and even unappreciated by non-Anglican brother and sisters, it truly is important to us, for we are, as we have been called, the people of “the book”.
Any proposed text must be representative of a spirituality of 450 years of prayer. 2 short words. Iambic pentameter.
11 February, 2008 at 12:09 am
Oh, …. and the BDW is simply large to actually be picked up, read, and used for prayer by anyone who doesn’t actually use steroids or human growth hormones.
23 February, 2008 at 4:58 pm
I would have speculated that extra-large tomes add weight to authenticity.
Who knew?
The offer remains, once you dry off, a spot at PC is waiting.
12 March, 2008 at 9:26 am
[...] to further work with Traditional Anglican Communion, it has also been whispered are in fact proceeding in Rome as well. No details have been [...]
21 April, 2008 at 2:26 am
February has come and gone…
Lo there, what news on the Rialto?
29 April, 2008 at 7:14 am
[...] to further work with Traditional Anglican Communion, it has also been whispered are in fact proceeding in Rome as well. No details have been [...]
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